It’s been 17 years since The Sopranos concluded with its infamous cut to black. And while HBO has offered several acclaimed crime dramas since then (like Boardwalk Empire and True Detective), the company’s first effort to feel like a kindred spirit successor series is, weirdly enough, a Batman show. Or rather, a non-Batman show: The Penguin, a spinoff of filmmaker Matt Reeves’ 2022 film The Batman, which focuses on the power-hungry Gotham City gangster (Colin Farrell), without a cape or cowl in sight.
The Penguin, premiering Tuesday (trailer below), has drawn heavy acclaim from critics (it has a 90 percent positive score on Rotten Tomatoes, although Hollywood Reporter‘s review was mixed) thanks to Farrell’s mesmerizing portrayal of a psychotic underworld gangster and Cristin Milioti as mob family heir Sofia Falcone (in a performance everyone will be buzzing about in the coming weeks).
Below, the show’s creative mastermind, Lauren LeFranc (Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.), discusses her bold approach to the series, which presents what’s arguably the most grounded comic book-inspired TV drama yet, and also serves up not one, but two of the best DC villain characters portraits ever put to film.
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What I found most immediately striking is that you threw out all the comic book tropes. There are no heroes, no outlandish costumes, no other well known Rogues Gallery characters. Oz doesn’t have some wild scheme to blackmail the city. You could watch The Penguin having never watched anything Batman and just think it’s a great mob drama. Can you talk about that decision? Because it seems like a big one.
I’m glad you feel that way, because that was the goal. We wanted it to be more of a crime drama than a comic book show. Matt established a very gritty Gotham City in his movie and a very grounded Gotham. I don’t feel like his movie felt too comic book-y in the traditional sense. And so I definitely took a page from that. Obviously, he has the Batman in it. And Batman, I don’t think, is really a hero or a villain, either. So for us, all of our characters are just ordinary people. Mobsters are historically larger than life, but they exist. Of course, we are in the DC universe. The show is called The Penguin and it’s about a man some people call “the penguin,” though it’s a derogatory term. He doesn’t like that. So it’s more in the vein of the way mobsters have nicknames for each other. So he’s Oz Cobb, just a man. There’s a slightly heightened element here and there, but we really tried to keep it very grounded.
At the same time, is that scary at all? You’re not using any of the crutches of the genre, and surely some fans will come to this with certain expectations.
You can never predict what people will think of your show, and if you spend time trying to, it rarely leads to something great. Personally, it was exciting. I have worked on traditional comic book shows, and I wasn’t looking to do that anymore because I’d had already done it. I was actively wanting to live in more grounded worlds, and was looking for a character-forward drama. This provided that opportunity. So for me, it was very freeing to try to challenge myself. I have never written a crime drama, and I wanted to see what my version of that would be.
We tend to be impressed when a male writer can really write a compelling female character. In this case, how did you go about challenging the voice and perspective of Oz Cobb, who is so perfectly this ultra toxic male crime boss?
My perspective on him, I would presume, is probably different than most people who are given the opportunity to write a man like him. That being said, it’s really fun to write an asshole. It’s fun and freeing to write a middle-aged white guy who says whatever he thinks and does whatever he wants. I do not have that opportunity in my life to live that way. I don’t choose to, either. But there is something a little exhilarating, honestly, to write a guy like him. I wish, in general, more people were given the opportunity to write characters that are different from who they are. I’m grateful for that. Because I’m the voice of Oz and I don’t think people would think, on first blush, that I would be. But he’s inside of me in a very different way than Colin is inside of Oz himself.
He reminded me of that line from Tony Montoya in Scarface: “I always tell the truth, even when I lie.” Like, he’s so full of bullshit. But when he’s scrambling in the moment, he probably believes what he’s saying.
One hundred percent. I think Oz has to believe everything he says even if, in the back of his head, he knows it’s bullshit. He leads with his own truth. That’s sort of who he is, to the point of delusion. He’s a narcissist. But it was also important for me to make sure that what Oz says oftentimes rings true. I think a lot of us would believe there’s value to what he is saying. What he’s speaking about is relevant in our culture and our wold. He’s saying it to his benefit, but that doesn’t mean there’s not a universal truth to it.
Is there a bit of Donald Trump in there? Consciously, at all?
There are many people right now who are in big positions of power who I think you can attribute Oz to. And I think it would depend on who you ask — whether people would see Oz as somebody like Trump or not. I based him a bit on Buddy Cianci, who was mayor of Providence, Rhode Island, for 21 years. He passed away, but he was extremely corrupt and extremely charming and very likable, and people looked to the other way on his corruption because he revitalized the city and he helped people. And I think that’s how Oz views himself.
Colin Farrell with Lauren LeFranc on The Penguin set.
Max
I normally never ask this question, but given how extreme the physical and vocal transformation was for Colin, did he ever just stay in character between takes and setups? I assume that would be easier than to jump in and out of it.
He’s such a pro and has Jessica Drake, his dialect coach, who he worked with for a decade, and the two of them created that dialect together for The Batman. So she was always on set and helping him. He would dip in and out of [the accent] between takes, and sometimes it does help him to stay with that accent, because it’s very specific, and obviously quite different from his own. But he didn’t stay in character as Oz.
Sofia Falcone is a minor character in the canon, and what you’ve done with her — and Cristin’s performance — is incredible. What drew you to this character in particular, and your take on her?
When I was thinking about who should be in the world with Oz, Sofia Falcone made a lot of sense based on the canon that does exist. She’s Carmine Falcone’s daughter, and Carmine dies in The Batman. Also, I read a lot of comic books as a kid, and I’ve always loved the crime drama genre, and some of the female characters aren’t as interesting or don’t get as a deep of a backstory. They’re just not given that much time. Which I felt was unfortunate, just as a fan. I really wanted to create a complicated women that Oz would respect and would challenge him. When I pitched Matt my version of Sofia, he was really supportive and eager for it as well. Matt also said that the way he approached the film was he literally adapt anything — he tried to pay homage to the comics, but then did his interpretation of it. So that gave me the freedom to feel like I could do the same thing with Sofia. I wanted to create my own canon for her. I wanted her to come from Arkham State Hospital and have this different backstory and experience the world differently than the woman that you met in the comics.
[The Penguin minor season premiere spoiler in this question, so stop reading here if you haven’t watched it yet.] And then you have Rhenzy Feliz who plays Victor. I know he’s been in other things like Marvel’s Runaways, but he still feels like such a find. And someone who had a stutter in childhood myself, I was impressed at how realistically that was handled. What made it important to have an average street kid as one of your leads?
I created Victor in part because it would be an interesting dynamic, that mentor-mentee relationship, and Victor is our lens into Oz as a way to bring us into his world. Also, I’m half Mexican, and I wanted more Latinx representation, especially in this genre, and I thought there was a great opportunity for that. And I also was interested in someone who Oz would share a connection with. Oz has a disability, a club foot, and that informs him — it doesn’t make him who he is, by any stretch, but it’s part of who he is. And I wanted to write a young man with a stutter, but that’s not everything about him. It’s just part of who he is, right? I wanted both of them to have that connection without it becoming something they speak about all the time, just as many of us have different things we all struggle with, and it doesn’t shape everything that we are, but it’s part of it.
This is really specific and not important, but just something that caught my eye. Many assume Gotham City is in New Jersey. But in the premiere, we see a “Gotham Driver’s License” card, which made me wonder: Could Gotham also be a state? Like New York, New York?
No, Gotham is not a state. Historically, it is New Jersey, even though a lot of people think of it as New York. Though, also I think Chicago is another comparable city. We shot in New York City, and we changed the skyline with visual effects to be Gotham City skylines. I think that’s the thing that’s so great about Gotham City — it feels like it could be one of our own cities, and you can’t quite pinpoint it.
The Penguin releases new episodes Wednesdays at 9 p.m. on HBO/Max.
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